Category Archives: geology

Does Geology destroy God. Genesis and geology,Seven papers

Why Mohler gets evolution so wrong? from Why Does the Universe Look So Old? (Albert Mohler)

Why Does the Universe Look So Old?

This seems a very odd question to ask.

Does the earth look old? Not when you see this – two photos of spring in Lancashire

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But then in the winter or autumn (fall to non-english speakers) the landscape can look old and tired

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This is an address Albert Mohler gave way back in 2010, but it is an excellent summary of the scientific, historical and biblical arguments some use to uphold young earth creationism. Those who don’t know Mohler is president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, one of the leading seminaries for the Southern Baptists – one of the largest denominations in the USA. Mohler has probably shifted the Southern Baptists into a more fundamentalist and creationist stance, and along with John MacArthur one of the theological giants who argue their view is the only option for Christians.

I cannot deny the strength of his following, but I can say where he is wrong. I am afraid I read his address with increasing amazement;

First, his understanding of science,especially geology and cosmology is so inaccurate that it is dire. Geology is all about fossils and not rocks.

Secondly, his historical treatment of these sciences and Christianity is full of mistakes and error, and is a garbled version of the discredited Conflict Thesis. He totally ignores the fact that many early geologists were devout Christians

Thirdly, his grasp of the history of interpretation of Genesis 1 is very patchy and incorrect.

His address is internally coherent but wrong at every turn as he operates on ping-pong false polarisations. By that I mean he presents only the extreme alternatives of a 6-day creationism centred on fundamentalist Christianity or the scientific atheism of Dennett, Dawkins and Hitchens. His address has the implicit call to decide for one extreme or the other and is probably quite effective.

He is very critical of all who don’t accept Young Earth Creationism. In the USA, Biologos, ASA, Peter Enns and Francis Collins are put on the naughty step as is Denis Alexander in Britain.

Mohler is quite unwilling to acknowledge that a vast number of highly orthodox Christians accept deep time (what he calls “fossils”) and evolution. Implicitly he puts large numbers of Southern Baptists on the naughty step too.

I am proud to be on the naughty step in solidarity with orthodox Chrsitans down the ages and throughout the world.

I can’t help asking what is taught at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and wonder how it will affect the Southern Baptists. I am aware why he has deflected a good number to follow his views. This address explains why Ken Ham has such a high regard for him.

This quote sums up the oddity of his views

The universe looks old because the creator made it whole.

I cannot even begin to grasp what he means.

Here is his address

Source: Why Does the Universe Look So Old? (Albert Mohler)

which I reproduce in full with my various criticisms.

Why Does the Universe Look So Old? (Albert Mohler)

· June 25, 2013

The following video and transcript is from the 2010 Ligonier Ministries National Conference. R. Albert Mohler Jr. serves as president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship school of the Southern Baptist Convention and one of the largest seminaries in the world. Mohler also hosts two programs on AlbertMohler.com: “The Briefing,” a daily analysis of news and events from a Christian worldview; and “Thinking in Public,” a series of conversations with the day’s leading thinkers.

It is extremely assuring to see this room filled at this hour on a Saturday morning of people here to seek Biblical truth on any number of questions. This conference has hopefully drawn us to some of the most pressing questions that Christians face, the tough questions. It is an honor to be here as always with my dear friend Dr. R.C. Sproul, with so many others, all these speakers, and the dear colleagues in the fight of the faith in coming to understand the great truths of the Christian faith and how these might most helpfully be applied in the confrontation with the questions of contemporary life. For so many years Ligonier Ministries and R.C. Sproul have demonstrated that you really can teach the deep things of the Christian faith to a church and to Christians in the late 20th and 21st centuries. We are indebted to a model of such faithful teaching and it is on the basis of that, it is driven by years and years of ministry, it is living in the surplus of all of that teaching that we are able to be here today in this conference to ask these questions. And our absolute confidence is that there is no question Christians need fear. There are only questions we need to learn how to answer. This is a tough one. My assignment: Why Does the Universe Look So Old?

This seems a funny question. How can it look old or young, for that matter? That is a very subjective question.

Well, we have limited options. Number one: Maybe the universe looks so old because it is so old. Option number two: Maybe the universe looks very old, but it is not actually so old as it looks. There could be perhaps a third option or any number of derivatives in which you simply say, “We can’t answer the question.” Or there would be some who would say, “The question isn’t important.” Now I’m going to suggest to you this morning that the question is extremely important and that it is one for which we must be ready to give an answer.

I want to invite you to turn with me to Genesis chapter one. We dare not seek to answer this question without first looking to the Word of God. [Reads Genesis 1, 2:1-3]. This is the Word of the Lord. What we have here in Genesis 1:1 – 2:3 is a sequential pattern of creation, a straightforward plan, a direct reading of the text would indicate to us seven 24-hour days, six 24-hour days of creative activity and a final day of divine rest.

This begs many questions on how you read Scripture

This was the untroubled consensus of the Christian church until early in the 19th century.

This is not the case. The early church varied on this and Augustine thought all of creation was simultaneous. After 1500 there was no consensus of any church. Both RC and Protestant churches tended to a young earth but soon reckoned the “time” of Genesis 1 was more than 6 days, so that by 1800 few educated Christians thought the earth was young.

Genesis 1 & geological time from 1600-1850

It was not absolutely unanimous. It was not always without controversy. But it was the overwhelming, untroubled consensus of the church, until the dawn of the 19th century.

Repeating himself but gives no evidence. As I demonstrated in cited paper there was no overwhelming untroubled consensus, but all churches gradually accepting geological time without regarding it as undermining of doctrine

Four great challenges to the traditional reading of Genesis have emerged in the last 200 years or so. The first of these is the discovery of the geological record. Early in the 19th century, building upon discoveries made in the late 18th century, there became an awareness of fossils that appeared to be telling a story especially in that period of time.

This is muddled. It was rock strata, not fossils, which pointed to a great age of the earth. The nature of fossils was only worked out in about 1690 and the fact of extinction only in the 1790s. Fossils only began to be used for relative age-dating after 1800. Mohler seems to focus on fossils when geologists centre on rocks. This is a warning signal to all that he doesn’t seem to understand the science he is criticising and rejecting. He should have read a good history of geology eg by Martin Rudwick (a fellow Christian) eg Earth’s Deep history

In the wake of the enlightenment – when expeditions were going to far corners of the earth for the first time, in the discovery of so many things that were new and unknown – the knowledge of a fossil record and various strata of fossil deposits became known.

This is plain wrong. Knowledge of the fossil record was very limited until 1800. Mohler is highly confused both on geology and the history of scientific discovery in the 18th century. Geology began by trying to work out the history of deposition of strata and putting the rocks into sequence. It started in about 1660 and come to fruition after 1800

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William Smith’s 1815 Geological Map

And that knowledge began to prey upon the minds of those who had been raised in a Christian culture, been taught Christian truths, and who had assumed that Genesis is the great historical account of how the world came to be.

This begs many questions. Many of these savants and scientists were Christians who believed that Genesis told them about the Creator but gave virtually no details. Apart from a few, new knowledge about geology did not prey on many minds

The second great challenge was the emergence of Darwin’s theory of evolution. Coming at the midpoint of the 19th century, we need to be reminded that Darwin was not the first evolutionist. We need to be reminded that Darwin did not embark upon the Beagle having no preconceptions of what exactly he was looking for or having no theory of how life emerged in all of its diversity, fecundity, and specialization. Darwin left on his expedition to prove the theory of evolution.

Speechless. Darwin did not go on the Beagle to prove evolution. There is no evidence to support that claim. He sailed as a competent naturalist and geologist trained up by the Revs John Henslow and Adam Sedgwick, two devout non-evolutionary Anglican clergymen. He did not consider evolution in his Notebooks until about 1837 , well after his return. This is simply false history

DSCF2350 180px-John_Stevens_Henslow 300px-Adam_Sedgwick

A theory that was based upon the fossil record and other inferences had already been able to take the hold of some in Western civilization.

It would be correct to say that Darwin devised the rudiments of a theory of evolution in about 1838, but previous attempts by Grandfather Darwin and Lamarck in about 1800 did not use the fossil record – if only that it was too rudimentary to use. Evolution was based on many aspects of biology and geology eg, morphology, biogeography, fossil succession, classification etc

The dawn of the theory of evolution presents a direct challenge to the traditional interpretation of Genesis and, as we shall see, to much more. (10:55)

No. By 1859 most Christians, evangelical or not, had accepted geological time and thus did not take Genesis as an account of 6 days of creation. At that time only a handful of educated Christians did not accept geological time. In the USA the main ones were Dabney etc in the Southern Presbyterian Church (who supported slavery) and the Lord brothers. It is very hard to find more than 20 in USA and UK from 1860 to 1900. The main challenge perceived was the evolution of humans implicit in what Darwin wrote, which to some reduced humans to animals

The third great challenge in terms of the traditional understanding of Genesis came with the discovery of ancient near eastern parallels to the Genesis account. Once these ancient parallels became known, the Enuma Elish, the Epic of Gilgamesh, scholars began to look at these documents and then to look at Genesis and begin to see Genesis as just one more of these ancient near eastern creation accounts.

How are you meant to look at writings of similar age and some similarity of content? Some did see Genesis after that as just one more account. Many did not.

The fourth great challenge to the traditional interpretation of Genesis was the development of higher criticism, and in particular the development of the documentary hypothesis—a hypothesis and an approach to the Old Testament, in particular to the Pentateuch, that sought to establish different strata, different sources and to take the text apart, treating it as a merely human document and seeking to look at dependence and borrowings and polemics and literary styles.

Biblical criticism had long been practiced , but some , especially in Germany, developed it in a way which removed any relaibility from the bible. Others did not and in the UK foremost were Westcott, Hort and Lightfoot

These four movements together were devastating in terms of the larger Western consciousness to the traditional interpretation of Genesis. When you add together fossils, Darwin, ancient near eastern parallels, and the documentary hypothesis, you have a brew for a massive shift in understanding.

Fossils again!!! Why not say geological time? The main issue, if there was one, were the last two.

Now when we ask the question, “Why does the universe look so old?” we’re asking it over against these challenges, and to each of those we will return. But first we need to define some terms.

If we’re talking about why the universe looks so old we need to ask the question just how old supposedly does the universe look? It’s fascinating when you look at the historical development of this question, that the expanse of time has grown exponentially once persons began to ask this question and to detach it from the Biblical reality. Just on the basis of scientific of phenomenological observation the age of the earth has been getting older and older.

This is naive and simplistic. Yes, in the 17th century geologists moved slightly away from 4004BC. By the end of the 18th, some reckoned the earth to be millions, but others following De Luc (a Christian) as many , many thousands. Up to 1860 there was a great diversity in ages, most were millions but some went for billions. Oddly in the 1860s Huxley and Kelvin suggested 100 million but the Rev Samuel Haughton of Dublin, who opposed evolution reckon that the base of the Cambrian was 1,800 million years ago, somewhat less than the 550 million reckoned today. Until rocks were radiometrically tested no firm dates could be given. This was first done in 1907 and soon it was clear that the earth was billions of years old. From 1946 the age of the earth has been concluded to be 4.56 billion. In other words that has not changed for 72 years. This undermines what Mohler says here.

There is a feeble argument claiming that “scientists” have encouraged this “growth”. In geologists had no yardstick for time until radiometric age dating was used from 1907. For 40 years things were tricky, but the conclusion arrived at by 1946 have scarcely changed since

The scientific consensus right now is that earth, planet earth and this particular solar system, is approximately 4.5 billion years old. That’s billion with a “b.”

This has not been overturned since 1946. It is a consensus based on a vast number of dates and other geological work

The age of the universe is now established by scientific consensus to be about 13.5 billion years old. The distinction between the age of the universe and the age of the earth having to do with the age of the universe being tracked back to the hypothetical emergence of the Big Bang

A poor parody of astrophyisics. Does Mohler mean consensus is just opinion? But the Big Bang was actually put forward by the astrophysicist Fr Georg Le Maitre, a Roman Catholic priest in the 1920s. He was hardly an atheist!!!! More recently the work of John Polkinghorne has helped Christians on this

and with the radiological RADIOMETRIC! data and with the physical extrapolation about the expansion of the universe, the assumption

This is simply nonsense and a mendacious attempt to cast doubt on the work of scientists

is that it would have taken 13.5 billion years to have created this universe looking at the radiometric data that is found here on the planet and in particular that has shifted amongst scientists now more towards the debris from meteorites rather than anything that was considered to have emerged from within the earth itself. The estimation is it’s 4.5 billion years old.

This is incredibly muddled. Mohler tries to reduce so much science to opinion and unfounded speculation.

Now just to place ourselves in the historical and intellectual context of our question, here’s what we’re really looking at. The inference and consensus of the church, through all of these centuries, that the earth and the universe, the cosmos as a whole, is very young, talking about a limitation of only several thousand years by the time you take the book of Genesis and especially its first eleven chapters, and you look at the creation account and you look at the genealogy and you add it all together you’re looking at no more than several thousand years.

This is simply not the case. The church (whatever that is) has never laid dwon what the age of the earth is.

We’re talking about a disagreement that is not slight. The difference between several thousand years and 13.5 billion years is no small matter and I would argue it comes with huge theological consequences.

One of the assumptions you need to have in mind in terms of the assumption about the age of the earth that the scientific assumption comes down to this: uniformitarianism. The assumption that is crucial to establishing the age of the earth is based upon an intellectual assumption that was made in the early 19th century by Charles Lyell and others called uniformitarianism which assumes that the way we observe processes now is a constant guide to how physical processes always have operated. Thus a steady state of understanding physical processes is what we’re talking about as the secular scientific assumption. We gauge these things and measure these extrapolated billions of years based upon the assumption, the scientists will tell us, that things as they are now are as they have always been in terms of physical processes.

This is utterly wrong. Lyell was born in 1797 and scientists were demonstrating the vast age of the earth before he was born!! Hence it cannot be based on Lyell’s Uniformitarianism!. Mohler doe not understand how geologists work, and determine the relative ages of strata. He bases his misunderstanding on a beleif that it was an “assumption”. I cannot see why he mentions a steady state! He would do well to study Uniformitarianism, Catastrophism and Actualism in geology.

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Now with that as intellectual background, what’s the urgency of the question?

Why are we here at this meeting asking the question “Why does the universe look so old?” Is this an urgent question? Is it one that calls us to account? The answer to that has to be yes. And there are some recent developments that indicate again and again and anew why it is so. The controversy concerning Bruce Waltke, who even in recent months became a focus of controversy after making a video where he argued that, unless evangelical Christians come to terms with accepting the theory of evolution, we will be reduced to the status of a theological and intellectual cult. The urgency of this question and the demand for an answer comes over against what is pressed upon us with the definition of the assured results of modern science.

Constantly we are addressed with the fact that science has now presented us with a knowledge, with an assured confident knowledge, to which we must give an answer. William Dembski in a recent book, borrowing from Cambridge philosopher Simon Blackburn, speaks of our current mental environment defined in this way. He says, “Our mental environment is the surrounding climate of ideas by which we make sense of the world.” As professor Dembski makes clear in his argument, the current mental environment in which we move and live and speak and communicate and preach and bear witness to the Gospel, is a mental environment that is shaped by the intellectual assumption that the world is very old.

This is an odd argument

To speak in confrontation to that current mental environment, it is implied, comes at a significant cost. The old earth, it is suggested, and old being 4.5 billion years old for the solar system and 13.5 billion years for the universe, is simply part of that mental environment.

Because it is true!

An even greater urgency is pressed upon us by the emergence of the new atheism—Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, three of these four horsemen of the new atheism are scientists, two of them have made their reputation in the defense of the most extreme and yet now commonly held forms of evolutionary theory in terms of the scientific academy.

Extreme evangelical atheists, good to pit against another extreme

Richard Dawkins is the author of the book The Selfish Gene and it is Richard Dawkins who has suggested that Darwinism is what allowed him to become an intellectually fulfilled atheist. In their new argument very forcefully put forth, they are arguing that evolution is the final nail in the coffin of theism. And they are making the claim that the assured findings and conclusions of modern science make not only the book of Genesis, but theism, untenable. In his new book, The Greatest Show on Earth, Richard Dawkins goes so far as to suggest that deniers of evolutionary theory should be as intellectually scorned and marginalized as Holocaust deniers. Evolution, he says, is a theory only by arcane scientific definition. It is a fact—a fact he says no intelligent person can deny. We have the emergence of the evolutionary worldview and its hegemony in the larger intellectual elites.

The new atheism comes along with Daniel Dennett and his book Darwin’s Dangerous Idea suggesting that evolution is what he calls the universal acid. I have to tell you, every middle school boy knows exactly what he is talking about. Daniel Dennett talks about when he was in middle school and he imagined a universal acid. This is an acid that would be so powerful that nothing could contain it. You put the acid in the container, it consumes the container. You then find that it consumes the entire classroom as it breaks out of the laboratory. Then it consumes the entire school—every middle school boy’s dream! Then it continues to consume, and to consume, and to consume until eventually nothing remains. Daniel Dennett says that science has never discovered an actual acid with that physical property, but he suggests that Darwin’s theory of evolution is the intellectual equivalent of a universal acid. It destroys everything in its wake. It completely redefines every understanding of life and its meaning. And I would argue that in that sense he is right.

This is a ping-pong argument as by choosing the extremes of atheism he makes his extreme position seem viable

Darwinist evolution is the great destroyer of meaning. Not only the meaning of the book of Genesis, but of almost every dimension of life. The background of this is also panic among the cultural and intellectual elites. In the United States and increasingly in Great Britain and in Europe and beyond, the intellectual elites are absolutely frantic. They’re scratching their heads in incredulity. How is it that after the Darwinist revolution, after the hegemony of evolutionary theory in the sciences, a majority of Americans still reject the theory of evolution? It is driving them to distraction. My favorite illustration of this is from the year 2003 when Nicholas Kristof wrote an article about the virgin birth of Christ in his column in the New York Times. And he said—as I paraphrase him—I am absolutely frightened to live in a society where there are more people who believe in the historicity of the virgin birth than in the reality of evolution. Well “wake up columnist Kristof!” It’s not just in America. Creationism and the rejection of evolution is not losing ground in Britain and in Europe, it is gaining ground. And intellectual elites on both sides of the Atlantic are in sheer panic. How can these things be?(22:00)

I don’t see the point of this

It’s not just panic amongst the cultural elites in the secular world however. It is also panic among the theologians. There is the warning from Professor Waltke, that if we do not get with the program we will be marginalized as a cult.

There are the warnings of people like Peter Enns, the website BioLogos—a movement started by Francis Collins, now the director of the National Institutes of Health under President Obama, formerly the head of the Human Genome Project, the author of the book The Language of God in which he makes his own argument that, unless we get with the program, we are going to be intellectually marginalized.

Yes, they are correct. Creationism is such intellectual garbage that for Christians to believe it makes the Gospel seem garbage too

And Francis Collins makes the point made by so many others that we will actually lose credibility sharing the Gospel of Christ if we do not shed ourselves of the anti-intellectualism, which is judged to be ours by the elite if we do not accept the theory of evolution.

Collins is spot on, as are Biologos and British counterparts whether people like Polkinghorne or McGrath or christians in Science and the Faraday Institute

And it’s not just in that circle as well. There are evangelical elites—the faculties of evangelical colleges and universities and seminaries. There are authors such as Karl Giberson and his book Saving Darwin; and then it goes back in terms of the evangelical movement to the emergence in the middle of the last century of the American Scientific Affiliation. Figures such as Bernard Ramm, a well-known evangelical theologian, who argued that there must be an acceptance of evolutionary theory amongst evangelicals.

Here Mohler’s history is very short. Yes the ASA only been going since the 1940s but there is a long tradition of Christians and science going back through 1900, 1800, 1700 and so to Copernicus in 1543.

I suspect Mohler has not read Ramm’s 1955 book who fell short of accepting evolution.

To consider geology Christians were in the forefront from 1800 to 1860, with geologists like Silliman and Hitchcock in the USA (Hitchcock’s The Religion of Geology 1850s is an excellent book relating Christianity to geology

In the UK are lots of christian geologists eg Sedgwick, Buckland, Coneybeare and Hugh Miller

https://michaelroberts4004.wordpress.com/2017/07/19/geology-and-genesis-unearthed/

In the early 19th century a few Christians in the UK opposed geology but were soon routed!! Consider the evangelical geologists Sedgwick

sedgwick

From 1860 there are Asa Gray and Dana in the USA with theologians like the Hodges and Warfield from Princeton and many others.

In the UK many fine Christians saw that evolution was no threat to faith.

https://michaelroberts4004.wordpress.com/2017/07/23/huxley-st-george-slaying-samuel-smoothest-of-dragons-evolution-and-religion-in-victorian-times/

In the USA the were some opposition culminating in the Scopes trial of 1925 but nothing like that in Britain.

In light of this, what are our major options? Thinking about the theories of the age of the earth, theories of the interpretation of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, I’ll reduce the options to four. The first is the traditional 24-hour calendar day view. Now this is the most straightforward reading of the text. As we read and heard the text Genesis 1 through the first three verses of Genesis 2, the most natural understanding of the text would be that what is being presented here by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is a sequential pattern of 24-hour days. The pattern of evening and morning, the literary structure, all of these things would point in a commonsense manner to 24-hour days. These 24-hour days would reveal a sequence, increasing differentiation, eventually presenting in the climactic creation of man as the image bearer of God. Six days of active creation and one day of divine rest. (25:29)

Is it? Look hard at pre-geology texts e.g. commentaries on Genesis. Most imply a short earth but have creation starting with chaos and then re-ordering. Several were open to a longer time span

The second option is what is known as the Day-Age view. In this view, what is argued over against the data that is coming to us that is claiming to represent a very old earth, what is presented to us is the option the Hebrew word Yom in this case need not always refer to a 24-hour calendar day but might actually refer to a much more indefinite presumably very long period of time. The Day-Age view, as held by most of its major proponents, would hold that what we have here is indeed a sequence. There’s a sequential understanding of creation towards greater differentiation, greater specialization pointing toward the creation of humanity as the image-bearers of God, but that these days, though sequential, are overlapping and not entirely distinct and are not to be taken as 24-hour chronological days, calendar days, as we know them.

This came up in the 18th century and was widely held in the 19th century. There was an issue over the days i.e. plants before sun. Superficially this Concordism worked but fell apart on detail and went out except for some conservative Christians by 1900.

The third option is what is most commonly known as the framework theory. The framework theory leaps over the question of the length of the days suggesting that it is only a literary framework and it also suggests it is a non-sequential ordering in the text. It is a literary way of telling a story about the providential ordering of creation by God. And thus there is theological content to be derived from Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, but in particular in Genesis 1 we are not to trouble ourselves with the question about the length of time, nor even about the ordering and sequence of the days, but rather to see that this is God providentially ordering his creation for his glory.

This was put forward by Meredith Kline and is accepted by many Evangelicals who reject a 6 day creation

The fourth option is to take the first two chapters of Genesis, and actually far beyond the first two chapters, into at least the first 11 chapters, as being merely literary. Understanding that what we have here is a parallel near eastern text, in this case customized for the worship and the teaching of Israel. It is a creation myth, a mythological rendering that marks the beliefs of the ancient Hebrews.

This is a parody. The emphasis here is on seeing God as creator and that Gen 1 does that rather than give details.

The first conservative version of this was by George Rorison in Answers to essays and reviews in 1861. This collection of essays was edited by Samuel Wilberforce (!!) to counter the liberal views of Essays and Reviews.

This does not see Genesis as a myth but as a literary way of persuading the reader/hearer that God is creator.

There is a fifth option – Chaos -restitution, which was the dominant view from 1600 to about 1850 when it fell out of fashion. Evangelicals took it over making it much cruder in style in their Gap Theory.

This comes out in Haydn’s Oratorio The Creation 1798 , with the orchestral introduction The Representation of Chaos and later the aria and a new created world sprung up.

The libretto was originally written for Handel, showing this was part of the culture!
I am surprised that Mohler ignored the dominant view of evangelicals up to 1870, which gave them a way of accepting geological time, even though most reject evolution.

My article in the Evangelical Quarterly

Genesis of Ray

Now what do these have to do with the age of the earth? Well of all of these options, only the understanding of a 24-hour day creation necessitates a young earth. The rest of them all allow for, if they do not directly imply or assume, a very old earth. As we work backwards in terms of evangelical options, the idea that Genesis is merely literary has to be rejected out of hand as in direct contradiction to our understanding of the Bible as the inerrant and infallible word of God. That option, for any credible and faithful evangelical Christian, must be taken off the table. So then we are left with the framework theory, held by some prominent evangelicals but, I would argue, one of the least defensible positions when we understand that it is based upon the assumption, not only that there may be a very long period of time that is involved and incorporated in Genesis 1 and in the sequence of the days, but actually that the sequence does not matter. It simply is not credible, at least to me, that God gave us this text with such rich detail and sequential development merely that we would infer from it his providential direction without any specific reference to all the direct content he has given us within the text. It certainly seems by any common sense natural reading of the text that it is making historical and sequential claims.

The Day-Age view, working backwards, is much more attractive on theological grounds—much more attractive on exegetical grounds. It involves far fewer entanglements and issues, but as we shall see it involves issues that go even beyond exegeses. (30:24)

Ultimantely Day-Age concordism does not work.

The first thing we need to note, as has been noted by even more liberal scholars such as James Barr, is that any natural reading of the text would indicate that the author intended us to take 24-hour days, calendar days, as our understanding.

Barr is probably right but I wonder if the original writers or hearers were bothered. In fact Gen ! is telling us of the Creator not how he did it!!

I am arguing for the exegetical and theological necessity of affirming 24-hour calendar days.

The first issue we note is the issue of the integrity of scripture. And we must concede that those who hold to a Day-Age view or its equivalent, who argue for an old earth, in so far as they are our colleagues in the evangelical movement affirming the inerrancy of scripture, are seeking to do so in a way that does not do violence to the inerrancy of scripture.

No. It does violence to the science

But I would simply respond most quickly that there is no such need for strained defense when it comes to a 24-hour understanding of creation. But there are issues far beyond exegetical issues that are at stake here. And as time is brief, I want to suggest that what is most lacking in the evangelical movement today is a consideration of the theological cost of holding to an old earth. This entire conversation is either missing or marginalized in the evangelical world today. It is my purpose as I have this opportunity to speak to you about this question today to suggest to you that the exegetical issues are real. And the exegetical evidence based upon a reformation understanding of scripture and the proper interpretation of scripture would lead me to a natural understanding of 24-hour calendar day creation.

Not if you read Reformers eg Calvin who stressed the principle of Accommodation – as in his Genesis Commentary “Moses wrote for the rude and unlearned” and “he who would understand astronomy and other recondite arts , let him go elsewhere.”

In other words the Bible does not teach science

calvin

But I would wish to allow, just as a matter of conversation and consideration, that it might be possible that we could be over-reading the text in that regard. It could be possible that we are actually coming to this with the presupposition that it must be a 24-hour day and thus we should hear the warning that comes to us from those that hold to an old age of the universe that we just might be creating an intellectual problem here in late modernity that is not necessary. So I’ve done my very best to consider the question from that vantage point. And when it comes to the exegetical issues I will tell you that I think the exegetical defense of a 24-hour calendar day is sufficient. In other words, the exegetical cost—the cost of the integrity and interpretation of scripture—to rendering the text in any other way, is just too high. But I want to suggest to you that the theological cost is actually far higher.

Think with me here. As we are looking at the Scripture, we understand it to be as it claims, the inspired and inerrant word of God. Every word inspired by the Holy Spirit. We believe that the speaking God speaks to us in this word. This is an inscripturated revelation of the one true and living God. But we also come to understand that this text is telling us a story, and that story, just in a redemptive historical framework, has to be summarized so that we know our accountability to the story and the narrative; the grand narrative of the Gospel can include no fewer movements than these: creation, fall, redemption, and consummation. We come to understand the grand narrative of Scripture, the redemptive historical narrative that is revealed in the unity of the Old and New Testaments in the consistent presentation of the revelation of God. And we come to understand that it begins with creation. It moves quickly to the fall. And then to redemption and consummation or new creation. We understand that the Bible presents a doctrine of creation that is more than merely an intellectual account of how the world came to be. It is a purposeful account of why the universe was created by a sovereign and holy and benevolent God as the theater of his own glory for the purpose of demonstrating his knowledge not only as creator but as redeemer. The doctrine of creation is absolutely inseparable from the doctrine of redemption. But it begins there in this story as is revealed in scripture. And thus we come to understand that what scripture makes clear is that God is revealed, how everything that is came to be, and why.

The second movement is of equal importance and that is the fall. Every worldview is accountable to answer the question “Why are things as they are? What is broken and how did this happen?” And the scripture so quickly takes us to Genesis 3 and to the fall and to human sinfulness and to the headship of Adam. And thus we come to Genesis 3; we come to understand that the world we know is the Genesis 3 world. The creation we observe is a Genesis 3 fallen creation.

Assuming we should take Gen 3 as fairly literal history , it does not speak of a fallen creation but of fallen humans. This is sheer eisegesis.

Mohler clearly believes in the Curse which cannot be gleaned for scripture. His beliefs are more in John Milton than the bible

https://michaelroberts4004.wordpress.com/2016/02/19/why-the-apple-didnt-kill-adam-and-eve/

paradiselost

And we come to understand that if we had merely these first two movements in the redemptive historical narrative of scripture, we would be lost and forever under the righteous judgment and under the wrath of God. But thanks be to God.

These then take us, as scripture takes us, to redemption. And there we come to understand that God, before the universe was created, had a purpose to redeem a people through the blood of his son. And he does this. And we come to understand how the scripture presents this in terms of the person and work of Christ, the meaning of his atonement, and the richness of the Gospel. But the grand narrative of scripture does not leave us merely there. It points toward consummation, final judgment, new Jerusalem, new heaven, new earth. It points towards the reign of God demonstrated at the end of history and the conclusion of this age. It points us to a time when every eye is dry and every tear is wiped away—to a final judgment. To a dual destiny. Heaven and hell. It points us to a new creation, to a new heaven and a new earth that is not merely the reestablishment of Eden, but something far greater. For in the new creation, God is known not only as creator but as creator and redeemer. His glory being infinitely greater by our beholding, by the fact that we know him now as those who have been bought with a price, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

It’s important for us to remember our accountability in that narrative, because this raises some central questions—two in particular. The first is the historicity of Adam. In Romans 5:12 we read, “Therefore just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin and so death spread to all men because man sinned.” Paul bases his understanding of human sinfulness and of Adam’s headship over the human race on a historical Adam. A historical fall. Adam may be—indeed I believe really is—the most pressing question: the historicity of Adam and Eve and the historicity of the fall.

romans 5 does not touch on the rest of creation, so he is reading in again!!

An old earth understanding has serious complications because the old earth is not merely understood to be old. The inference that it is old is based upon certain evidences that also tell a story. The fossils are telling a story. And the story they are telling is of millions and indeed billions of years of creation before the arrival of Adam. But the scientific consensus of the meaning of that evidence goes far beyond that to suggesting that there were hominids and pre-hominids and there were hundreds of thousands of hominids and there were, well let’s put it this way. It is possible to hold under an old age understanding to a historical Adam, to the special creation of humanity, but it requires an arbitrary intervention of God into a very long process, billions of years in which at some point God acts unilaterally to create Adam and Eve. Eve out of Adam.
(40:06)

It comes with very serious intellectual entanglements. It is actually difficult and that is reflected by the fact that the contemporary conversation in terms of the age of the earth is requiring a redefinition of who Adam was. Interestingly as I’ve looked at this question I’ve been surprised quite frankly to see how many older evangelicals had already seen this and come to terms with it. In his commentary on the book of Romans, John Stott actually suggests that Adam was an existing hominid that God adopted in a special way, and out of Homo sapiens God implanted his image, and made Adam particularly in his image by ensouling him, and creating in Adam not only Homo sapiens but Homo divinus. Let’s just imagine for a moment what that would theologically require. It requires that there were Homo sapiens who were not the image bearers of God. It requires an adoptionistic understanding of Adam, rather than special creation of Adam.

Denis Alexander in his new book Creation or Evolution Do We Have to Choose?, a fellow at Cambridge University suggests, and I quote here, that “God in his grace chose a couple of neolithic farmers to whom he chose to reveal himself in a special way, calling them into fellowship with himself so that they might know him as a personal God.” Now is that in any way a possible, legitimate exegetical reading of Genesis? That God chose a couple of neolithic famers? What haunts me about that book is not just the contents of the book but what is on its front cover, a blurb from J.I. Packer who says “Surely the best informed, clearest, and most judicious treatment of the question and title that you can find anywhere today.”

Alexander takes a very conservative view of Adam and Eve

Do we not take into account what this means? Well, many others are taking it into account. For instance at the BioLogos website, now becoming the locus classicus for discussion, you find the argument made by Peter Enns very recently, just even in recent weeks in a series of articles entitled “Paul’s Adam,” I quote here, “For Paul, Adam and Eve were the parents of the human race. This is possible but not satisfying for those familiar with either the scientific or archeological data.” He goes on to suggest that we must abandon Paul’s Adam and suggests that Paul as far as he refers to Adam in Romans chapter five is limited by his dependence on primitive understandings.

Karl Giberson, Eastern Nazarene University, says this “clearly the historicity of Adam and Eve and their fall from grace are hard to reconcile with natural history.” He says this, “One could believe for example that at some point” – this dismisses the kind of Stott theory now just so you hear, what I want you to understand from this is that holding to this doesn’t even give you any advantage. In other words, if you’re trying to make peace with the modern secular mind and you’re trying to meet the intellectual elites halfway, guess what? They won’t meet you halfway. Listen to this: “One could believe, for example, that at some point in evolutionary history God ‘chose’ two people from a group of evolving humans, gave them his image, and put them in Eden, which they promptly corrupted by sinning. But this solution is unsatisfactory, artificial, and certainly not what the writer of Genesis intended.”

That’s not said by someone who’s defending the book of Genesis, but rather the theory of evolution, and trying to remove the possibility of the very kinds of things that some who identify themselves as evangelicals are trying to claim. An old earth understanding is very difficult to reconcile with a historical Adam as presented not only in terms of Genesis, but in terms of Romans. It requires an arbitrary claim that God created Adam as a special act of his creation and it entangles a good many difficulties in terms of both exegeses and a redemptive historical understanding of scripture.

That becomes clearer in view of the second great issue at stake here, which is the fall. We understand from Genesis 3 and from the entire narrative of scripture from texts like Romans 8 that what we know in the world today as catastrophe, as natural disaster, earthquake, destruction by volcanic eruption, pain, death, violence, predation—that these are results of the fall.

This is a gross misreading of Romans 8. As it is normally translated with ktitsis as creation, those verses do not imply volcanoes , quakes or animal death

We end up with enormous problems if we try to interpret a historical fall and understand a historical fall in an old earth rendering. This is most clear when it comes to Adam’s sin. Was it true that, as Paul argues, when sin came, death came? Well just keep in mind that if the earth is indeed old, and we infer that it is old because of the scientific data, the scientific data is also there to claim that long before the emergence of Adam—if indeed there is the recognition of a historical Adam—and certainly long before there was the possibility of Adam’s sin, there were all the effects of sin that are biblically attributed to the fall and not to anything before the fall. And we’re not only talking about death, we’re talking about death by the millions and billions.

Mohler has a full-blown view of the Curse and thus has to reject geological time.

Some who hold to an old earth in dealing with this question suggest that what Paul is actually talking about—what the scripture claims—is when sin came, spiritual death came. But I would suggest to you that is a very difficult claim to reconcile over against the totality of scripture. And the whole idea that before there could be humanity and certainly before there could be Homo sapiens and before there could be Adam and before there could be sin, there were all the effects of sin written backwards. Let me just point out in the first place that no Christian reading the scripture alone would ever come to such a conclusion, ever. And once you try to come to that conclusion, it’s very difficult to actually reconcile with the scriptures, with the grand narrative of the Gospel. What sense does it make to point to the kingdom and the consummation as when the lamb and the lion shall be together and lay together, if indeed there was predation before the fall. If the animosity between the lion and the lamb is simply a part of a very old story, a very old earth, that we picked up as some kind of symbolic illustration, the writers of scripture simply borrowing it in order to point towards the reality of a new creation, well how are we to understand the scripture at all?

There’s eschatological impact as well. And there is tremendous theological strain when it comes to trying to sever the doctrine of redemption from a straightforward understanding of the scriptural account of creation. We are reminded of how closely these are together. We are reminded that John Calvin teaches us that the knowledge of God is the knowledge of God as creator and as redeemer. The imperative that is presented upon us is not new. And much of the language that is used to confront Christians today on this question goes back all the way to Galileo. Galileo spoke of the two books as he defended himself. He spoke of the book of scripture and the book of nature suggesting that the believer ought to be accountable to both books. And that is a very attractive argument. It’s an attractive argument because we come to understand that the scripture itself tells us that there is a natural revelation, a general revelation. In Romans chapter one Paul goes so far as to tell us not only that God has revealed himself in nature, but that in nature even his invisible attributes should be clearly seen. There is a book of nature. We do learn much from it. We learn a lot of common sense observational truth from looking at the book of nature. We are not only licensed but as we are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, as we are those who by God’s grace have grown to know him as creator, we are given the intellectual responsibility to come to know this earth and this cosmos and all that is within what we might call the Book of Nature because we come to understand that God has revealed nature to be intelligible. But clearly there is a problem. And again we go back to the fall. Because Paul makes clear that, even though God has revealed himself in nature so that there is no one who is with excuse—given the cloudiness of our vision and the corruption of our sight—we can no longer see what is clearly there. The heavens are telling the glory of God, but human sinfulness refuses to see what is plainly evident. Calvin puts it this way in Book One: he says this knowledge is either smothered or corrupted partly by ignorance, partly by malice. The universe is telling a story and Christians have affirmed that the universe is telling a story. Herbert Butterfield, the great historian of science, points out that Christianity was the seabed of the rise of modern science because Christians were confident that God had created the world to be known in an intelligible manner.

Exactly and that is why we have the billions of years of geology!!

(52:40) But modern science, part of the modern project, as driven by forces such as Darwin and his heirs, is seeking to present to the western mind and indeed to a global mind, an intentional challenge to the Christian account of the meaning of things. An intentional alternative to the Christian worldview and to the Christian Gospel.

It is simply untrue to claim Darwin and his heirs sought to challenge Christianity

Evolution is central to the great secular mythology. This is why it is cherished so much by persons such as Richard Dawkins who again said that it is Darwinism that allows persons to be intellectually fulfilled atheists. Now this is not to argue that all who hold to an old earth hold to evolution in any form. Nor to theistic evolution, which had I time I would suggest is the consummate oxymoron. But rather I would suggest that it is, that is an old age theory of the earth comes with theological and exegetical complications that I believe are in the end insurmountable.

It is not fair to say that an old earth position cannot hold to a historical Adam. It is to say that it cannot hold to a historical Adam without arbitrary intellectual moves and very costly theological entanglements. It is to say that this position seems to be at an insoluble collision with the redemptive historical narrative of the Gospel. The cost to the Christian church, in terms of ignoring this question or abandoning the discussion, is just too high. The cost of confronting this question is also costly. It can be very expensive because it can create intensity and conflict and controversy but I would suggest that the avoidance of this will be at the cost of our own credibility.

The two books. We need to recognize that disaster ensues when the book of nature or general revelation is used in some way to trump scripture and special revelation. And that is the very origin of this discussion. We would not be having this discussion today. This would not be one of those tough questions Christians ask, if these questions were not being posed to us by those who assume that general revelation and indeed the book of nature is presenting to us something in terms of compelling evidence, compelling evidence that is so forceful and credible that we’re going to have to reconstruct and re-envision our understanding of the biblical text.

We need to think more deeply about this. The BioLogos website has just even in recent days focused its attention on the direct rejection of biblical inerrancy. Understanding that any rendering of the bible as inerrant makes the acceptance of theistic evolution impossible. Certainly implausible. Kenton Sparks writing on that website suggests that, intellectually, evangelicalism has painted itself into a corner—that we have put ourselves into an intellectual cul-de-sac with our understanding of biblical inerrancy. He suggests that the Bible indeed should be recognized as containing historical, theological and moral error. Peter Enns, one of the most frequent contributors to the site, suggests that we have to come to the understanding that, when it comes to many of the scientific claims, historical claims, the writers of scriptures were plainly wrong.

Our only means of intellectual rescue, brothers and sisters, is the speaking God, who speaks to us in scripture, in special revelation. And it is the scripture, the inerrant and infallible word of God that trumps renderings of general revelation, and it must be so. Otherwise we will face destruction of the entire gospel in intellectual terms. When general revelation is used to trump special revelation, disaster ensues. And not just on this score. It’s not just on the question of the age of the earth. What about other questions? The assured results of modern science. There is so much that is packed in that mental category, that intellectual claim. Just remember first of all that science has changed and has gone through many transformations. The assured results of modern science today may very well not be the assured results of modern science tomorrow. And, I can promise you, are not the assured results of science yesterday.

In the New York Times just in recent days there’s been a major article about one particular fossil which is claimed to be a hominid and just about a year ago that same paper presented it as irrefutable proof of a certain trajectory of human evolution. Now you have scientists coming back saying we don’t even believe that it’s a hominid fossil. The assured results of modern science? What do the assured results of modern science say about the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead? What do the assured results of modern science in terms of the methodological naturalism that is absolutely essential to modern science, what does it say about the virgin conception of Jesus Christ? The assured results of modern science? Science is now claiming to tell us about sexual orientation in terms of a physicalist explanation. Is the Christian church going to make its understanding of human sexuality and sexual morality accountable to the assured results of modern science? Are we going to submit our cosmology, are we going to take the redemptive historical understanding of scripture and submit this to interrogation by the assured results of modern science? Let me suggest to you the end of that process is absolute (commercial interferes here) [..] of Scripture includes the claim that Scripture is norma normans normata. The norm of norms that cannot be normed. Any surrender of that on any question leads to disaster.

In conclusion, there is a head-on collision here. There are those that claim there is no head-on collision. Francisco Ayala, who just won the Templeton Award, says that science and religion cannot be in conflict because they’re answering two different questions. Science is answering the how, and religion is answering the who and the why. That is intellectual facile.

In many ways Ayala is correct but there is much overlap especially on ethical implications

The scripture is claiming far more than who and why and any honest reading of the modern scientific consensus knows that it too is speaking to the who and very clearly speaking to the why. Stephen J. Gould, the late paleontologist of Harvard University, spoke of what he called non-overlapping magisteria. He said science and religion are non-overlapping magisteria. Each has its own magisterial authority and its own sphere of knowledge and they never overlap. Well the problem is they overlap all the time. They overlap in Stephen J. Gould’s own writings. We cannot separate the who and the why and the what, as if those are intellectually separable questions.

Many oppose Gould eg ASA Biologos, and in the UK Chistians in Science, Polkinghorne Peacocke McGrath for starters.

In his new book Why Evolution is True Jerry Coyne cites Michael Shermer at the very beginning who says this, “Darwin matters because evolution matters. Evolution matters because science matters. Science matters because it is the preeminent story of our age. An epic saga about who we are, where we came from, and where we are going.”

Now it sounds to me like he’s talking about the why, not just the when and the what. I want to suggest to you that when it comes to the confrontation between evolutionary theory and the Christian gospel we have a head-on collision. In the confrontation between secular science and the scripture we have a head-on collision. I want to suggest to you that it is our responsibility to give an answer when we are asked the question “Why does the universe look so old?” In the limitations of time, it is impossible that we walk through every alternative and answer every sub-question. But I want to suggest to you that the most natural understanding from the scripture of how to answer that question comes to this: The universe looks old because the creator made it whole.

This is absurd rhetoric

When he made Adam, Adam was not a fetus; Adam was a man; he had the appearance of a man. By our understanding that would’ve required time for Adam to get old but not by the sovereign creative power of God. He put Adam in the garden. The garden was not merely seeds; it was a fertile, fecund, mature garden. The Genesis account clearly claims that God creates and makes things whole.

Secondly—and very quickly—if I’m asked why does the universe look so old, I have to say it looks old because it bears testimony to the affects of sin. And testimony of the judgment of God. It bears the effects of the catastrophe of the flood and catastrophes innumerable thereafter. I would suggest to you that the world looks old because as Paul says in Romans chapter 8 it is groaning. And in its groaning it does look old. It gives us empirical evidence of the reality of sin. And even as this cosmos is the theater of God’s glory, it is the theater of God’s glory for the drama of redemption that takes place here on this planet in telling the story of the redemptive love of God. Is this compatible with the claim that the universe is 4.5 billion years old in terms of earth, 13.5 billion years old in terms of the larger universe? Even though that may not be the first and central question it is an inescapable question and I would suggest to you that in our effort to be most faithful to the scriptures and most accountable to the grand narrative of the gospel an understanding of creation in terms of 24-hour calendar days and a young earth entails far fewer complications, far fewer theological problems and actually is the most straightforward and uncomplicated reading of the text as we come to understand God telling us how the universe came to be and what it means and why it matters.

At the end of the day, if I’m asked the question “why does the universe look so old?” I’m simply left with the reality that the universe is telling the story of the glory of God. Why does it look so old? Well that, in terms of any more elaborate answer, is known only to the Ancient of Days. And that is where we are left.

Actually no, the evidence of science is that it is 4.56 billion years old!!!

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Finally this book is well worth a read

dxxx

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Is the earth old or young? Questions for creationists

9 Replies

TEN QUESTIONS TO ASK A YOUNG EARTH CREATIONIST?

Don’t worry if you meet Christians who say to be a real Christian you must believe in a Young Earth, or if the local village atheist tells you that as a Christian you must believe that Creation took place in 4004BC.

At first sight it may seem that to believe the Bible we must believe in a Young Earth. After all Genesis One writes of creation in six days not billions of years. But for the last 2000 years most Christians have not believed in a Young Earth and it is only in the last half century that it has become a big issue for some Christians.

Here I will ask questions of Young Earthers, and why they reject all the geology which tells of an ancient earth. To put it simply; is the earth young or old?

Is the Gospel more about the Rock of Ages than the ages of rocks?

Rock of Ages cleft for me, let me hide myself in thee

The centre of the Gospel is the crucified and risen Christ, and everything in the Old Testament leads up to that and Jesus, not the age of my rock collection, is the heart of the Christian Faith. Jesus is the Rock of Ages, but ages of rocks are worked out by geologists and at times that can be difficult and maybe the ages shift after corrections. I was lucky to be the fourth geologist ever to go to the Richtersveld in South Africa. The geology was fantastic, but I questioned some ages and after a few weeks I decided that some rocks were only 900 million years old rather than the 2,400 million previous geologists claimed! Not a bad reduction. I am pleased to say that my conclusions are accepted by all geologists today – but I could have got it wrong. Not bad for a 23 year old. (This won’t happen in Britain as hundreds of geologists have visited every outcrop!)

But I haven’t changed my views on the Rock of Ages.

Does the Bible teach that the earth is spherical? Some try so hard to claim that there is science in the Bible and that according to the Bible the earth is spherical. Not so fast, please. Genesis dates from before 1000BC and the first demonstrations that the earth was spherical were by the Greeks in about 500BC. Before that all thought the earth was flat. This is what the writer of Genesis thought, as did people from Egypt, Greece and Mesopotamia.

How the ancient Israelites imagined the earth and heavens

storehouse-300x165

Some force the issue by claiming Is 40 vs22 points to the earth being spherical. The translations rightly say a “circle” not a sphere. It is not possible to read a spherical earth into Genesis 1 vs 6- 8. This is because the Bible is not interested in science and so I give two 400 year old quotes. Galileo said “The Bible tells us how to go to heaven and not how the heavens go.” And Calvin said “He, who would learn astronomy and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere.” Thus we go elsewhere to astronomers – and to geologists for the age of the earth.

How could people in 1000BC or even30AD grasp the idea of geological time? The answer is simply NO, as no one had suggested it and any suggestion of millions of years was not in the running. Many people today find the idea of the earth being billions of years old almost unbelieveable. Tracing out the history of geology, geologists gradually began to see that the earth was older than Ussher’s age of 4004BC after 1680. Looking at the rocks in Nant Peris in Snowdonia the Rev John Ray, a great botanist, began to wonder if the earth was older than Ussher had suggested. He was tentative and rather sceptical, but was asking the right questions. By 1800 most thought the age of the earth was in millions and that included most Christians. In the 20^th century radiometric age dating showed the earth is 4.6 billion years old. That is based on the physics of radioactivity and has nothing to do with evolution. If the dates are wrong then so is all physics.

The geological column and time

column+temp

Does the Bible always speak in a direct literal way? Different biblical writers use language in many ways as we do, using narrative, poetry, simile, metaphor. And then the narrative could be history, story, or parable. At times narrative, even when historical, may contain poetry. Thus Genesis One appears to be narrative at first sight but then each day is written in a poetic-like form; “Then God said, ‘Let there be…” followed by “And God saw that …. Was good” with a refrain “And there was evening and morning…” Just because poetry is used does not mean it is “untrue”. Psalm 23 is pure poetry using great imagery to bring out the love of God.

Does the age of the earth – or its shape – matter to a Christian? In a sense, neither the age nor the shape of the earth matters. In about 360AD St Basil of Caesarea wrote in his commentary on Genesis that it did not matter whether the earth is spherical, cylindrical or a disc, even though at that time most scholars opted for spherical. Thus for a Christian the earth could be 10,000, 10,000,000 or 10,000,000, 000 years old and it does not matter which, as the Bible is not clear on the matter. But to go against the proven results of science is simply folly. The earth IS 4.6 billion years old. For 250 years now geologists have only found evidence for an ancient earth and none for a young earth.

6a. Surely Death came in when Adam ate the fruit in Eden? Often people assume that death came into the world for all living things when Adam ate the “apple”. This is often called “the Curse”. If this is correct then, no animals died before the Fall so the earth must be young. Now that is the end of any Old Earther!

BUT!! What does Genesis 3 say? It says nothing about animals and whether they only died after the Fall. So this has been read into Genesis and cannot be read out of Genesis 3. (Exegesis) Thus the Bible is silent.

To expand, this view comes from John Milton’s epic poem Paradise Lost and just should not be part of Christian belief.

But nowhere is that said in Genesis 3, as no mention is made of the death of animals but only of Adam and Eve.

6b. If there was no curse, why did Jesus die? The New Testament is very clear; Jesus died to forgive humanity and every book of the New Testament supports that. This comes down from “God so loved the world” John 3 vs 16 to God so loved me. To say Jesus died to reverse the Curse, takes away from the central Christian belief that Jesus died for sinners, both corporately and individually. It means that the Atonement instead of dealing with human sin, only deals with an postulated event of Genesis 3.

Is Young Earth the traditional Christian view? Many think so, but NO! The early Christians, right up to 1800, were not clear on the age of the earth as that depended on how literal they thought Genesis was and they had no geological evidence to guide them. Until the rise of geology many thought that the earth was thousands of years old. As geology began to show an old earth, most Christians accepted that as it did not affect Christian teaching. From 1850 onwards few Christians were Young Earth and it only came back in for some in the 1960s, with the coming of Young Earth Creationism in Morris and Whitcomb’s The Genesis Flood. Before then even most American evangelicals thought the earth was old.
Were early geologists opposed to Christianity and did they use their geology to undermine belief? I once did a field trip with an atheist geologist and as we chatted he said that belief in an ancient earth leads to atheism. We argued and got nowhere! Yet when you read a history of geology you soon find many geologists were Christians, from Steno in 1680 up until today. Most notable were the “reverend geologists” of the early 19^th Notable among these were Adam Sedgwick, William Buckland and William Coneybeare. Sedgwick gave us the Cambrian system and with others the Ordovician, Silurian and Devonian. Buckland introduced the idea of Ice Ages to Britain. All were devout Christians and did not see how an ancient earth undermined the Christian Faith

William Buckland dressed for the field in 1842

buckland

0 Did Christians oppose Old Earth Geology in the past? No and yes. Some did but most did not. I have to admit that this came as a surprise to me. From my superficial reading of science books and on religion and science I thought Christians opposed geology. But changed my mind as I did a historical study. Over several decades I have researched this question and read old theology books, journals, books by the hundred. I had to change my mind. I found that there were two myths; the first was that the churches opposed geology and this was used by atheists to say Christianity is wrong and secondly by some Christians to say geology was wrong and has atheist presuppositions.

I found that in the 17^th century Christians believed in a youngish earth as there was little geology to guide them. As geology was studied more in the 18^th century more and more educated Christians realised the earth was ancient. In the 19^th century a few argued for a young earth, but nearly all had no science, let along geology. Most Christians, often after study, concluded the earth was ancient. Very few Christians opposed geology fro the last few centuries.

Why do you claim that so many geologists in the last 350 years got their geology wrong? I don’t know how many geologists have studied rocks and the strata in the last 350 years. Today there are 12,000 fellows of the Geological society of London and so there must be over 100,000 qualified geologists in the world. All except for about 20-30 “Young Earth” geologists accept the vast age of the earth. A few geologists in the 18^th and 19^th century also reckoned geological time was wrong.

Undoubtedly geologists make mistakes today and did so in the past. I can give a dozen examples from Charles Darwin alone. But his and other geologists’ mistakes are minor.

So far no “Young Earther” has given an argument against geological time which has any validity.

Conclusion;

I will repeat. The heart of the Gospel is Jesus, the Rock of Ages, not the ages of rocks.

Geologists were not following an atheist philosophy to destroy Christianity but careful observers, many of whom were Christians, developing the science of Copernicus, Galileo and Newton in their study of rocks. From their many mistakes they built up a complex picture of the earth developing over billions of years and gave a beautiful picture of the age and structure of the earth. Though I left professional geology decades ago I still get a wow-experience when I look at the geological structure of the earth as I did when walking in the Lakes and Dales in recent weeks. It’s like unravelling a slow-motion revelation by God.

I hope these answers to ten questions show that old earth geology is to be embraced as not only is it not opposed to Christianity but reveals a fantastic picture of the history of our planet over 4 billion years. Every time I go out and casually observe the scenery I see how wonderful this picture is, Last week it was a walk over some Lakeland mountains where I say fascinating volcanic rocks from 450 million years ago and the effects of the Ice Age.

I have omitted all discussion of geology but this is a good blog by a Christian geologist https://michaelroberts4004.wordpress.com/2018/09/07/100-reasons-the-earth-is-old-2/

I graduated in geology fifty years ago, a few weeks after becoming a Christian. I worked as a geologist for a few years and then was ordained. I have kept up my geology and find the geological picture produced by geologists as fascinating, coherent and full of wonder, showing the Creative work of God.

Thus when I visit a place like Cwm Idwal in Snowdonia, as I do every year, I sea shear beauty, the wonder of God the Creator and its geology going back 450 million years when these volcanic rocks erupted. To me they are all one.

DSCF2420 DSCF2393

315500_393800870693304_2100848630_n It is excellent that someone has had the patience to do this. I have yet to find one reason why the earth could be young and that all the strata were laid down during Noah’s Flood.

At times we here of special pleading but here are 100 arguments while the earth is ancient.

It is important to note that there has been no question that the earth is ancient from the 18th century, with only a handful of naysayers, who rarely, if ever, have any skills in geology.

via 100 Reasons the Earth is Old

A field-trip course in England on Darwin and evolution

Can we trust radiocarbon dating?

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A useful account of Radiocarbon dating from Paul Braterman. It is often misrepresented by creationists

BTW carbon dating only is useful for tens of thousands years and is not used for geology!!

some focus on dates from coal but don’t actually consider them and dive in with superficial objections

Primate's Progress

Willard Frank Libby, inventor of the method

Can we trust radiocarbon dating? Young Earth creationists tell us that we can’t. After all, it makes the same range of assumptions as other radiometric dating methods, and then some. Other methods benefit from internal checks or duplications, which in the case of radiocarbon dating are generally absent. There are numerous cases where it appears to give absurdly old ages for young material, while apparent ages of a few tens of thousands of years are regularly reported for material known on other evidence to be millions of years old. So can the Young Earth creationist¹ objections be rebutted, and if so how?

The principle of radiometric dating is simple.² If we know how much of a particular radioactive substance was present when a material formed, how much is still there, and

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Lithium: Brines, batteries and bottlenecks

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An excellent blog on lithium from the Geological Society

Mentions issues “The Lithium mining and processing industries have a huge challenge ahead in terms of delivering a steady supply as demand booms. Many expect that supply will not build as smoothly as expected. Global politics and trade are likely to add complexity going forward with the potential for trade wars in the future. There is no shortage of Lithium in the ground, but the issue around supply comes in terms of what can be extracted economically. Lithium mining operations need to ramp up considerably from the 200,000 tonnes mined annually at the moment to the 1 million tonnes needed by 2025 if they are to meet demand.”

Geological Society of London blog

Atacama Desert, Chile. (Copyright: Wikimedia Commons)

In early April, The Geological Society hosted a flagship meeting as part of the 2018 Year of Resources on Lithium: From exploration to End-user. The meeting was a fascinating insight into this increasingly important metal, all the way from exploration and extraction to its conversion into high-purity battery grade Lithium for its use in Li-ion batteries in everything from smart phones to electric vehicles (EVs) to energy storage. In this post, we delve into some of the background to the increased demand for Lithium, what it’s used for, where its extracted and the various concerns around supply security.

What is Lithium and where do we find it?

Lithium is a very reactive, soft, silvery-white metal. It is the lightest metal in the periodic table and the lightest solid element. It is this lightness along with other properties that makes it so well suited…

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Peddling and Scaling God and Darwin

God, evolution, Darwin, bikes, mountains etc

Category Archives: geology

Does Geology destroy God. Genesis and geology,Seven papers

Why Mohler gets evolution so wrong? from Why Does the Universe Look So Old? (Albert Mohler)

Why Does the Universe Look So Old?

The universe looks old because the creator made it whole.

Why Does the Universe Look So Old? (Albert Mohler)

William Smith’s 1815 Geological Map

Is the earth old or young? Questions for creationists

TEN QUESTIONS TO ASK A YOUNG EARTH CREATIONIST?

How the ancient Israelites imagined the earth and heavens

The geological column and time

William Buckland dressed for the field in 1842

A field-trip course in England on Darwin and evolution

Can we trust radiocarbon dating?

Lithium: Brines, batteries and bottlenecks

What is Lithium and where do we find it?

Why Does the Universe Look So Old?

The universe looks old because the creator made it whole.

Why Does the Universe Look So Old? (Albert Mohler)

William Smith’s 1815 Geological Map

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TEN QUESTIONS TO ASK A YOUNG EARTH CREATIONIST?

How the ancient Israelites imagined the earth and heavens

The geological column and time

William Buckland dressed for the field in 1842

What is Lithium and where do we find it?