Michael Roberts gets slaughtered by Oz Creationists!– rebuttal of 10 questions to ask a young earth creationist – Part 1 – creation.com

 

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Last year Premier Christian Radio asked me to write a blog “10 questions to ask a young earth creationist”.

I attempted to focus on the essentials

I duly did that and here is what they published

https://michaelroberts4004.wordpress.com/2018/11/19/10-questions-to-ask-a-young-earth-creationist-premier-christianity/

I published my first draft as a blog and it is slightly longer and fuller. Even so there was much I left out and wanted to expand. Here it is

https://michaelroberts4004.wordpress.com/2018/09/13/is-the-earth-old-or-young-questions-for-creationists/

In the ensuing three months from publication I hadn’t heard much, but now I am being honoured with a two part rebuttal from the lovely people at Creation Ministries International.

Here is the first installment

Source: Answering the Premier Christianity article by Michael Roberts – 10 questions to ask a young earth creationist – Part 1 – creation.com

37 thoughts on “Michael Roberts gets slaughtered by Oz Creationists!– rebuttal of 10 questions to ask a young earth creationist – Part 1 – creation.com

  1. Paul Braterman

    Congratulations or having these people attack you by name. (Brag time; I’ve been attacked by Creation Ministries International *and* by Answers in Genesis *and* by the Discovery Institute.)

    You do your best to sow wisdom, but some seed falls on very stony ground

    Liked by 2 people

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  2. wkdawson

    “In ignoring the plain meaning of Genesis 1 (in favour of secular deep-time thinking), Michael Roberts is in grave danger of making himself the final arbiter of truth over God’s Word.”

    I can also be true that
    In ignoring the plain meaning of Genesis 1 (in favour of the creationist’s enforced 6000-year-old-earth model), Creationists are in grave danger of making themselves the final arbiters of truth over God’s Word … and driving many who might come to believe in the Risen Lord away from looking to Jesus for no worthy reason.

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  3. Robert Knetsch

    What a terrible piece of drivel. I mean, they bring up James Barr, for instance, in supporting their argument, but they’d NEVER use James Barr as an authority on pretty well everything. Barr would have disagreed with both sides of the argument, as he disliked evangelicals. What a piece of dishonest trash.

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  4. ashley haworth-roberts

    ”Earth’s age can only be inferred and depends upon the worldview of the investigator. The philosophical assumptions behind these dating techniques invalidate any supposed claim for rocks being reliable clocks, so are not “proven results of science”, as Michael Roberts claims.4 The investigator was not there to measure the rock’s initial conditions of formation, nor observe how the rock might have altered throughout its history. Therefore, to assume that a rock’s final condition is the result of present-day rates of change is an a priori assumption which excludes catastrophic, or accelerated processes (which would have been in operation at Creation and the Flood).” What garbage these people come out with.

    ”Roberts’ claim that geologists have found no evidence for “a young earth” clearly demonstrates he is unaware of the evidence, because there are many evidences that the billions-of-years belief system that he accepts without question is seriously faulty.” CMI reject ALL the vast scientific evidence that Earth is very very old – purely for reasons of dogma: https://ageofrocks.wordpress.com/100-reasons-the-earth-is-old/

    cont’d

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    1. wkdawson

      It is impossible to persuade people who have no interest in listening. It doesn’t matter if it is religion or politics. They will selectively choose their own authority and there is little we can do about it.

      I think it is the difference between walking a life of faith and grasping for certainty.

      In a walk of faith, we must accept that we don’t have the answers and must trust that God is somehow working in this world in some way that we cannot discern clearly. When we walk by faith, in a debate about Jesus, we have to admit that we don’t know but we follow Jesus because we think there is more than just this world, its stuff, and the fleeting forces of chemicals in our brains. Unlike blind belief, we have to put Jesus to the practice in the real world where it doesn’t work like we expected. We sometimes have to accept that science doesn’t always yield the answers we want it to, and sometimes we are forced to rectify how we interpret some of the Bible passages accordingly. There are times that this can be very difficult, but is part of the walk of a life of faith.

      Creationists want certainty; that the Bible is True (C),(R),(Tm) and doesn’t require any careful exegesis of the ancient words of a very distant and remote culture. It is the “idolatry of certainty”; if we could prove God existed, we would just obey the laws as we would then be guaranteed the goodies of heaven. God grants us the choice and that choice is all the harder when we don’t have that certainty. When we cannot pound hard the claim of “True”, it means that people (particularly young people) can turn away. I think they overlook that their fears will be all the more realized by their vicious pounding of false claims that young people eventually get wise to.

      Nevertheless, this idolatry of certainty is a danger we all suffer from. We can look at the behavior of creationists as comical and even farcical, but it is a behavior that even well-educated people can fall into. The people who first rejected the Copernican system (heliocentricism) were typically the scientists of the age (religion got involved much later); many scientists rejected the idea of the atomic nature of matter even up to the early 20th century (perhaps as a result of using integrals for solving problems that were statistical in nature), and quantum mechanics was rejected by many top scientists (largely because it has some seemingly non-physical features to it). We must all accept that we can be wrong. I think a good source of this clash is due to this idolatry of certainty. We don’t like strange ideas that conflict with our instincts (or at least our traditional approaches), but sometimes that is the way the world works.

      So maybe take it as an object lesson that over-reliance on certainty and, when challenged, grasping for this certainty can lead otherwise intelligent people to appear very foolish in the end. We must pray, seek God’s wisdom, and meditated on his word every day and find the blessing of a walk of faith in the uncertainty of this world through the fellowship of fellow believers and travelers we meet along the way.

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  5. ashley haworth-roberts

    https://www.philipstallings.com/2015/06/the-biblical-flat-earth-teaching-from.html

    ”Radiometric dating has many problems …”. Only for young earth creationist zealots. Nobody else.

    ”However, carbon dating is a huge problem for the belief in millions of years! Why doesn’t Michael Roberts accept the carbon dates?” What carbon dates are those? And what is the evidence that Roberts is ‘not’ accepting them, you bigots? (Carbon dating is just ONE form of radiometric dating – they all refute a ‘6,000’ year old Earth.)

    ”As Scripture states “let God be found true, but every man a liar” (Romans 3:4).” That would include writers working for CMI as well as (if the Bible is to be believed on this matter) everybody else on the planet (we are all as bad as the pathological liars Trump and Putin of this verse, or this interpretation of it by CMI, is to be believed).

    I’m sending the link to this page to CMI – as a comment under their article (Part 1). They will censor it because I am blacklisted. But the intention is to make these people aware of the comments at this page.

    As for the people who have commented under the CMI article, they are frightened of God and frightened of scientific realities that go against a literalistic reading of Genesis.

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      1. ashley haworth-roberts

        I just told him (post awaiting moderation) that there were 11 comments here.

        “Of course, no creationist that I know thinks this is what happened and if he knew anything at all about what he’s rejecting, he’d know how foolish it makes him look to suggest such a thing.” What exactly I wonder do YECs believe regarding penguins before the flood? Were they managing to survive in Eden which most people assume, assuming it existed, must have been within today’s Iraq. How did they manage to do that?

        At least Risner seldom censors me – unlike some other coward YECs that I won’t name right now.

        Perhaps he will offer an answer to my question about penguins.

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      1. Paul Braterman

        Since writing that, I checked out the link to Creation Today. Glad I got it right. Michael, obviously in the benign pre-flood climate they didn’t need to be slothful. Or something.

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  6. ashley haworth-roberts

    I’ve just seen one made-up (and ludicrous) attempted answer to that penguins question (which ignores that most penguin species are adapted to the extreme cold of Antarctica and nearby islands): https://creationtoday.org/how-did-animals-travel-from-all-over-the-world-to-get-to-the-ark/

    Wonder what Steve might think of Eric’s explanation.

    Whatever it is it is not science. And unsupported by all known scientific evidence concerning how planet Earth and its continents and oceans were just 4,500 years ago.

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  7. ashley haworth-roberts

    Part 2 has appeared: https://creation.com/10-answers-from-creationists-2

    The claims about the Bible might hold some water but they misrepresent history and science eg ”The idea that there was no “geological evidence to guide” Christians is contradicted by the fact that the scriptural geologists of the time (see next section) were men who possessed expert geological competence.” The scriptural geologists started with Bible verses (using that so-called ‘lens of Scripture’) rather than with any evidence that was readily available.
    ”Christians who are committed to belief in Genesis 1–11 as historical continue to oppose ‘old earth’ geology for sound scientific reasons, as many of our articles testify.” No – the reasons are theological and concern dogma. Which reasons they don’t attempt to hide: ”We must ask ourselves why, historically, Christians believed in a young earth? Was it really from an ignorance of earth science? No, it was due to the straightforward teaching of Scripture—recorded history.”

    CMI are against science. Of course they won’t admit this! They must try and project this attitude onto their critics instead. They are first class bigots. And liars. They accuse Lyell and Hutton of ‘subterfuge’ – but fail to demonstrate this.

    ”What is your final authority—God’s Word, or man’s word?” Definitely not the word of Creation Ministries International.

    Liked by 2 people

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  8. ashley haworth-roberts

    Congratulations – you are being attacked by ‘Cowboy’ Bob Sorensen.
    http://www.biblecreation.com/2019/02/making-hybrid-creation-stories.html
    ”People who try to compromise with theistic evolution, old earth creation, and hybrid creation accounts do not accomplish anything of value. Indeed, such tinhorns mock God, his people, and Scripture. Do they really believe?”

    Apparently the reason people reject a ‘6,000 year old’ Earth etc is not because of science disproving it but because these ‘alleged’ Christians (who are backed by the vast majority of other people with no axe to grind) are simply seeking ‘the praise of men’.

    Says a proven liar motivated by hatred and divisiveness. Does he really believe?

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  9. ashley haworth-roberts

    The already proven (proven via email and also on the BCSE community forum) serial malicious Liar Bob Sorensen is claiming (in the cowardly manner of blogging about it instead of joining this conversation https://www.piltdownsuperman.com/2019/02/stoning-creationists-on-the-age-of-rocks.html) concerning the comments above ”They are also full of bad logic and misrepresentation”;. Hey Bob – how about you score a goal for the first time in your life – by actually PROVING what you are alleging is a fact and not a false slur against your critics?
    You have the floor.

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  10. Ashley haworth-roberts

    ”Roberts the Pusillanimous Priest has been joining with the Criminal Cyberstalker. I’m being told by Roberts that I need to follow Jesus. No, I won’t follow his esoteric Gnostic Jesus (old earthers seem to act like they have secret knowledge of the truth, since it is not in the Bible).”
    Comment made under the link to this article: https://www.piltdownsuperman.com/2019/02/stoning-creationists-on-the-age-of-rocks.html

    And he has now also blocked me from contacting him under any of his blog posts. He does not wish to read home truths. He might get upset.

    Liked by 1 person

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    1. wkdawson

      Ashley:
      Who cares what Cowboy Bob says? It’s another ministry to hurry up gaining the whole world and losing the soul of Christ in the idolatry of certainty. He’s working hard to make the whole world give on on God.

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      1. ashley haworth-roberts

        I care what he says. Because he is a pathological liar and bigot who calls himself a Christian. As I have documented at the British Centre for Science Education community forum over a number of years (he is too scared to join the forum so instead attacks me in blogs and on Facebook pages when I am barred and thus denied the right of a factual reply). He has also ducked my challenge to come onto THIS discussion and attempt to substantiate his malevolent accusation against some of the preceding postings. People like him deserve to be held to account.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. wkdawson

        I understand what you are saying. It is a cowardly strategy, unbecoming of those who preach that they care about the truth (and the Truth), and doesn’t reflect anything of the fruits of the spirit. It has only sowed discord even within the community of the faithful.

        Reconciliation would be the ideal, but it seems like this one would take a very long time — if it can ever happen at all in this life.

        It is our human nature to want people like this punished, and we have in our own minds what sort of punishment we would like. Cowboy Bob’s opinions and his lies do not change the truth, but it deceives, it misleads, and lying for Jesus is an ugly thing to do. It is wrong.

        Yet try to see it from the view of what Jesus has to put up with. He went through the crucifixion for our salvation, suffering and enduring the scorn of the world (our scorn and derision directed at him). We are all broken, we all have blind spots, and we are all net together in a complex web of corruption. We are all like the servant who owed the zillions of dollars (Mt 18:21-35); so it is about me and our debt. Jesus asks us to forgive even the people who are thoughtless and mean and even wish evil on us.

        It doesn’t mean having a relationship with them. Cowboy Bob has shown that he behaves with even more spite and venom than the unbelievers he sees (only in his own head). He has shown that he not even worthy of your anger. All you have left is to forgive him for his ugliness; otherwise, he owns more of your life than he deserves. Also, remember that it will all be exposed for what it is before the judgment seat of Christ for all to see, where none can hide behind their lies, half-truths, and ruses. What is more important for us believers is to focus on our own difficult journeys, and pray that somehow we will (by Grace) honor God by our faithfulness.

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      3. ashley haworth-roberts

        Whether I’ve forgiven him is an interesting question to consider.

        But I think there are too many ‘wishy washy’ Christians who turn a blind eye to bad behaviour and deliberate lying by other professing Christians online – instead of challenging it publicly and exposing (where they have the knowledge to do so) the falsehoods posted in the name of Christianity or creationism.

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      4. wkdawson

        Ashley: I agree. I don’t know where you are with these matters, but I can understand that you are (rightly) angry. Christians should not tell lies for Jesus.

        Perhaps this is why this passage appears in Matthew 7:22-23
        22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

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      5. ashley haworth-roberts

        Until recently I’d left Christianity (for around 12 years) because of personal problems. But made a recommitment and returned to church (Church of England – which Ken Ham calls ‘spiritually dead’).

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      6. wkdawson

        A walk of faith is not easy. There are a lot of things we see and endure under the sun that are deeply troubling. Worst of all is the very institutions that are supposed to bring spiritual hope and heal have deeply flawed people — including me. I keep journals and I have something like a half a meter of pages with my letters to God. I would estimate that probably 90% of those pages are almost surely filled with very bitter complaints at God. That’s one reason for keeping journals, so this stuff is written down somewhere and we don’t have to run the loop in our heads all the time — though that happens anyway.

        Christianity is not the self-righteous words and distortions of Ken Ham or any of the wannabe sidekicks like Cowboy Bob. They worship _their_ certainty, _their_ “winning”, and _their_ praise from men. What happened to Jesus? He died and was mocked. The eternal God was treated as the lowest criminal. That’s us, that’s the world.

        At times, I could only say what Peter said in John 7:26-9 “Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. We believe, and we know you are the Holy One of God”. Basically, that walk with Jesus, even with all the ugly things that happen under the sun, is all I can do sometimes to keep going. I follow Jesus because I know that I cannot stand tall against the world without a close relationship with God. Unless the word of God is written on my heart, I will be like everyone else, running for cover or compromising in the complex web of sin when I should say no.

        You seem a very intelligent person who wants to do right and values truth. I recently stumbled on these sermons that really ministered to some of the pain and bitterness I’ve known. I really liked his exegesis of the book of Jonah (a rather difficult one) and Ecclesiastes. They are not the kinds of sermons that address science and faith issues but as they address the far more difficult things like the ugliness we run up against in the world and our misguided expectations of God. The sermons are challenging, and they have some real intellectual content. It has brought some peace to my heart that a half meter of journals has not.
        https://thebibleproject.com/podcasts/exploring-my-strange-bible/

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